In a new feature at the annual Fire Protection of Rolling Stock ARENA conference, Railway Technology’s editor Patrick Rhys Atack held a series of live interviews on stage.
Below is an abridged version of his conversation with Fatih Savci, fleet manager at Austrian private train operating company WestBahn.
The conversation began with a discussion of current rules regulating fire protection for passenger coach interior retrofits, as WestBahn will soon receive second-hand rolling stock from a currently unnamed TOC.
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Patrick Rhys Atack – Talk us through a little bit of those regulation changes. I mean, they’ve not been still for the last couple of years.
Fatih Savci – We can speak about the topic of the seats, for example. So we wanted to start the design changes, especially on seats because we think that seats, especially are the most important thing which creates the design of the Westbahn brand.
We are using leather seat covers, leather seats and it was important to change the design of the existing seats. And we know that all the [fire] regulations were to test the seats with a paper cushion. It was burned with a paper cushion.
And now, if you look at the newest regulation, we see a high increase in the requirements. So nowadays you have to test with a 15 kilowatt flame. So you burn the seat for 180 seconds with 15 kilowatts, which is very much increasing the requirements. And especially if you look at the seat, so we get a new seat cover with better results against fire resistance, but there is also the chance that we don’t fulfill the requirements because the requirements are going so high.
PRA – How did the choice to use leather come about, and why is that what you’ve gone for? Is that comfort decision, or is that related to the fire protection?
FS – From one side, there is a comfort position, the passenger has a better feeling [using] leather seats. In the first stage, you will see that leather seats… the cost is much higher. But, the other side, if you look at the total lifecycle cost of this seat, leather seats have less work on washing them and cleaning them, so you don’t need to do chemical cleaning. And so it is also more durable leather seat covers. So we are using just leather seat covers on the existing trains.
PRA – You told me something fascinating about the way that the lead is treated. And can you, can you go into a bit of detail about the fire protection treatment that goes into this?
FS – Yeah, so let’s talk about the topic with the existing regulations, and nowadays we have to improve the fire resistance of leather material. So basically, in the past… fire resistance chemicals were used on the end stage of producing the seat cover. So you do the implementation of the leather at the last step, and it was enough to fulfill the requirements.
But nowadays, the 15 kilowatts flame rate test method, which since 2020 is the actual test method, you have to improve the leather coating much more. So you have to do new production methods, like bleaching. You have to put some chemicals, extra chemicals, to increase the fire resistance of the leather so it is all the cost factor for us, because it’s increasing the cost of leather seats.
PRA – You mentioned cost again. Is that your biggest concern really, when you’re retrofitting old rolling stock?
FS – So especially as a private operator, you have to be aware of the cost. So basically, one side you have the benefits, which you create with the design changes, and on the other side, you have to be aware of the costs, right?
Because, you know, we are changing the seats. We get big benefits. But the other side, we have also the cost factor, and sometimes the requirements are limiting us to do some changes, because the costs are increasing. Because we need better materials. We need new methods to produce the equipment.
So there is a limitation for us as an operator to do some, I would say, design changes on the train. So we are, I would say, not so free if we want to do changes on the existing trains, like before.
PRA – What are the things you’re looking at when you’re researching the interiors, when you’re rebranding the interiors as well. Has the cost of regulations actually stopped you from making any changes at this in this new fleet?
FS – Yes. So we can speak about the side panels. So basically the fleet [will be used by WestBahn] just for the next five, six years, and then we have to give back the trains in the original conditions. So it was not allowed for us to to change all the side panels in the train because the cost factor will be so high.
So we wanted to do it, and after 6 years we [planned to] take the foil out and give it the original condition, back to the operator. And we look at the HPL plates on the side walls, and we wanted to foil it.
And then we see that the increased requirements, we had to use special material, special foils, like Pvf foils. So the cost is so high that we stopped the operation to foil the side panels, because the costs are much higher than the benefit we will get with design changes. So that was one of the points which limited it as an operator.
PRA – What would you say to the EU Transport Commissioner if they were in the room, what is the private sector’s message on fire regulations?
FS – At the moment, the requirements, like on the seats we see that the test was about the paper cushion which was burnt. And then we measured the fire, resistance of the seat, the flame rate and the toxicity of the flame. And then in 2016 we got the new requirement that we have to use a 7-kilowatt flame as test method. And after four years, in 2020 with EN45545, we have to test with a 15 kilowatt flame.
So you can easily see it just on that point that the requirements are going so high over the last years.
It is really a big challenge for the operator to do some changes on the existing fleet.
We can see it on another side. If you buy a new train, it’s easy for the operator because the manufacturer is handling with the newest materials. It’s always okay. But if we are taking existing fleets from another operator which are older than 10 years or something like that, then we have not just only to take the seat covers out and change them, we have also changed the foam, we have to change not only one component, and so it is not easy for us.
PRA – Do you think that the regulations are actually going faster than the technology is at the moment?
FS – sure. I think so. Yeah, I think it’s, you know, there should be a balance between the existing regulations and the increasing of them and the material which we can use.
So basically, the cost factor is a big point for us.
PRA – What is the one big challenge regarding fire protection of your fleet, looking frwards?
FS – I think the biggest challenge in the future for operators, in terms of fire safety, will be that we see a huge change of the behavior of passengers last year. The topic of e-bikes and e-scooters.
So passengers are transporting this kind of electrical devices in the trains, and the major dimension of the devices is increasing every year, the bikes are getting bigger, the batteries are getting bigger, higher voltages, and the amount of these devices is increasingly incredible in the last years.
So that’s a point which is concerning me as an operator, especially about the topic of the fire safety. And you know, there’s also people want to charge these devices inside the train, and there are sometimes opportunities for them to charge it. And we should be aware about this problem. And I think this can lead to several security problems, especially inside the train, about the explosion risk and something like that.
PRA – So have you had risks like that? Has WestBahn had incidents that you have to then respond to?.
FS – So we were lucky, we didn’t have any accidents with battery fires. We are aware of what this risks and the risks are growing every year because it is more common to use an e-bike or e-scooter, and especially the amount of these devices inside the train. Sometimes the risk is incredibly high, I would say.
